1 (edited by Morganol 2016-09-30 12:25:26)

Topic: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

Is there already a trick to cross reference "anything"?
It would be nice to cross reference:

  • a coil on the electrical drawing, with the corresponding valve on the pneumatic or fluid drawing

  • a motor with its position and end travel sensors

  • a motor with its driven compressor/pump/fan

etc...

Linking a coil with valve is logically the same trick linking coil with switch, and as useful nomicons/smile

If such such general trick, do not exist i can probably copy/edit them into cross ref types...

I found the button in the Element editor (picture)
I think i figured out Master/Slave...
But how do we use the three lower types in dropdown list?

I have found some videos (not watched through all...) and also the documentation for version 0.4
Is there some unfinished somewhat usable documentation of later version?

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Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

Hi Marganol,

yes there is a trick I've used many times to make cross ref like you describe it (between pneumatic and electric diagrams for example).

In the collections panel, go to:
QET Collection
    Electric
        Graphics
            Auxiliary symbols for cross referencing
                With linking function (automatic)
                    Parents
and drag the element "reference previous" on your diagram
then, go to:
QET Collection
    Electric
        Graphics
            Auxiliary symbols for cross referencing
                With linking function (automatic)
                    Children
and drag the element "reference next" on your diagram

link both elements together and that's it.
They are only "folio reports" elements but without graphic (without arrow).

This way you can place cross reference texts everywhere you want:
one near a coil in the electric diagram (e.g. the "reference previous") and one in the pneumatic diagram (e.g. the "reference next").
This way, elements are not really linked together like with the master/slave functionality but the trick do the job and it's really easy to use.

3 (edited by Morganol 2016-10-04 18:00:37)

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

OK thanks that is one way to do it nomicons/smile
I want something less easy to foul up.
I have been experimenting with making master and slave symbols for representing the same part in elecric, pneumatic and mechanical drawing.
The way i think is that user and service personnel first look at the process drawing; the "big stuff" in the hall.
So i made the process parts master.
Say you have a process valve, operated pneumatically, and with electric feedback:
The valve is on process drawing, with a list of linked items positions, and annotation
On the electrical drawing are the valves position switches,
And on pneumatic drawing is the actuator part of the valve - and they all have same label nomicons/smile
Then there is the piloting/control valve that have its master part on pneumatic drawing, and coil on electric drawing.
I can also divide sensors in two parts: part with the measurement connection, and the electric connection part.
Or a valve with servo motor separated.
A 5/3 valve with two coils have naturally two coils in electric drawing.
Complex valves/actuators may have more tan one actuator and more than one feedback
I could have mechanical drawings too, floor plans where process parts locations are indicated...
Still playing and learning...

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4 (edited by Nuri 2016-10-04 18:40:16)

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

This is another way things can be done nomicons/smile

I use master/slave cross ref only for electric drawings.

one question:
in your screenshot, process part on the right, why do you use some contact cross ref tables for the P.PV1 valve?
You obviously defined the element as "Master" and then as "coil".

Maybe you would rather defined the process elements like this:

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Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

Selecting options like you propose makes it show only the label, and that mean less clutter.

But I did like shown because i want indications of where all other parts are.

(It is a bit misleading listing all related parts with contact symbols though)

So I am playing with prefixes...  I will paste another screenshot soon...

6 (edited by Morganol 2016-10-05 00:05:51)

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

Trick to make it list what kind of slaves it is:
Use the existing system to get prefixes in cross ref:

1) Set master elements to be type "Switch/button"
2) Set slaves to be Power or Delayed to be referenced like "Coil:" / "MoCyl:"
(and use NO or NC type switch depending on in which column you want it listed,
could be used for differentiating opening and closing valve pilot solenoids)
For "Signal:" use Normal type switch (change over) (it will always be listed in both columns)
3) Set up use of prefixes for "Switches":
Right click project in tree
  Project Properties
    New Folio
      Cross references
Type: select "Switches"
[x] show power contaxts in cross
Set prefixes:
Power contacts : "Coil:" (and set Coil slaves to identify as Power contact)
Delayed: "MoCyl:" (and set motor & cylinder to identify as Change Over contact)
Change Over: "Signal:" (and set sensors slaves slaves to identify as Delayed contact)

Auxiliary NO or NC contacts can still be used and do not get prefixes.

Little problems
1:
"Signal:" parts get listed in both crossref columns
2: An Aux change over contact get
"Signal:" prefix
3: I can not use Switches type master for anything else than Aux or they will get the prefixes

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7 (edited by Morganol 2016-10-04 23:50:12)

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

Questions:

1)  Is it possible to make slaves inherit and display more variables from the master, than just the label ?
- It would be nice to add a couple word descriptions that get synced between master and slaves.

2) Is it possible to tighten the distances between labels and references;
I.e top left in previous image: between to get "(1-B9)" immediately below "CV15"
And in the masters have the annotation directly under the xrefs.
- Would be more beautiful and easier to read (better see what belongs)

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

Why You don't use XREF list mode instead cross view?

1)  Is it possible to make slaves inherit and display more variables from the master, than just the label ?
- It would be nice to add a couple word descriptions that get synced between master and slaves.


In slave XREF link you could add more % variables linked to master titleblock 
-> https://qelectrotech.org/forum/viewtopi … 5295#p5295

9 (edited by Morganol 2016-10-06 00:44:36)

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

I could not see how that would reach my goal better than my attempt above...?
but i may have missed something as i do not understand french (Tried also google translate, but... )

Let me explain by example what I really want.
See top row of the last screen-shot I posted above;

1)
On each slave i want to put a short visible descriptive label;
on the switch "sw top pos", on the valves "coil down" and "coil up" respectively.
I then want those texts to show up automatically at the master together with slave coordinates, like this:

sw top pos : 1-A3
coil down : 1-A5
coil up : 1-A7 

2)
On the master i want to put a descriptive label like "Lifter Unit" optimally placed right below the main label, before xref list.  So now it looks like this:  (large typeface emulated by me using spaces)

 C V 1 5
Lifter unit
sw top pos : 1-A3
coil down : 1-A5
coil up : 1-A7

... I then want all connected slaves to display that description too, i.e for the switch placed like this:

 C V 1 5
Lifter Unit
1-B9

Edit to make it visually complete:
As said at 1) above the switch also show:

sw top pos

/Edit

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

You can not for slave elements .. for the moment, you could only customize slave XREF link,  but this is perhaps a good idea.

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

I would be very happy if implemented.
Anything that enhances clarity minimises mistakes of designer, producer, and service, and saves them all time.
And less need to flip pages also contributes to both nomicons/smile


You can not for slave elements

...but for the master?
Please tell/show how nomicons/smile

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

On master element under Xrefs list you could add comment and location field.
On screens I tried with %loc variable but I think you could try with other variable if I remember ..
You want to adding other field has visible in the XREF, and view this new information under slave label name too, like master comment information also visible under slave label name ?

You could use your %variables
https://download.tuxfamily.org/qet/forum_img/foliolistlabel4.png
https://download.tuxfamily.org/qet/forum_img/foliolistlabel5.png

Or your texts
https://download.tuxfamily.org/qet/forum_img/master_xref.png
https://download.tuxfamily.org/qet/forum_img/master_xref1.png

13 (edited by Nuri 2016-10-06 09:22:01)

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

Hi Morganol,

I saw you're creating process symbols for your needs.
If you are ok with it, it would be nice if you send me them so that I can integrate them in the QET collection.
At the moment, there are very few process symbols in the collection.

Of course, you can send me the symbols when you are finished with your job, ther is no hurry!

Send them to:
nuri@qelectrotech.org

Are you creating PID symbols too? For such diagrams:

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Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

Hi Yuri
I can happily send you symbols when I am satisfied with the project.
Beware though that i mostly create them like i want, which is by a combined frustration and experience from looking at too many completely different looking "standards" and programs...  So the are probably rather "personal" and "unique" colored by my own taste.

I have no experince of designing and using of PID symbols (except from reading diagrams with them)

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

So the are probably rather "personal" and "unique" colored by my own taste.

no problem, I will decide which elements would be good for the QET collection and which not.

I have no experince of designing and using of PID symbols (except from reading diagrams with them)

mmm... it's the same for me, I only have to know how to read them.

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

Nuri wrote:

Are you creating PID symbols too? For such diagrams:

Hello,
Is it possible to design PID with qelectrotech ?
With a bill of materials ?
If yes, i could try to design and provide some PID symbols (ISO 10628).

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

Yes of course it is a symbol like other.

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

examples:
https://qelectrotech.org/forum/viewtopi … 2994#p2994

http://ezza.free.fr/drainback/symboles.pdf

http://ezza.free.fr/drainback/solaire_et_T.pdf

19 (edited by Nuri 2016-10-08 23:05:40)

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

@ Opus

YESSS!!! It would be really nice to have some PID symbols.
I can create a new symbol category for those new symbols (next to "electric", "logic, "pneumatic"...).

With QET you can configure the folio (page) with really big dimensions and this is a big advantage to draw some PID diagrams which are almost always drawn on a single huge page.

With a bill of materials ?

yes it works.
there are 2 possibilities:

1.
type your article data in the fields of the "selection properties" :
https://download.tuxfamily.org/qet/forum_img/selection_properties_article_fields.png
and then go to the main menu "project" --> "export a nomenclature"


2.
or follow this tutorial if you want something more like a database :
parts list edition

20 (edited by Morganol 2016-10-09 00:18:56)

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

PID symbols would be great nomicons/smile

Ah, parts list - nice nomicons/smile
I tried it, but the column "Label folio" only contain "%id(%total)" for every item; it do not resolve the values.  Bug?
(version: trunk, svn 4733)
EDIT: Entered https://qelectrotech.org/bugtracker/view.php?id=92 /EDIT

BTW, is it possible to generate a netlist?

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

Wow, thank you for your replies.
I'll make a try.
I'm very interested in database.

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

@ Morganol

I tried it, but the column "Label folio" only contain "%id(%total)" for every item; it do not resolve the values.  Bug?

not a bug, only something that is not already completely achieved.
To solve the problem:
go to main menu --> Settings --> configure QElectroTech --> New project
then go to the tab "folio" and delete "%id(%total)" in the field "folio :" (under the field "file :") .
But this solve only the problem for new folios you will create.
For existing folios, you have to delete "%id(%total)" in folio properties one by one (or open the *.qet file with a xml editor and use the "search and replace" function).

In the nomenclature (parts list) you can:
EITHER use the column "N° of folio" in the csv file
OR use the column "Label folio" in the csv file

for your information:
"N° of folio" is automaticaly generated by QET if you want CONTINUOUS NUMBERED folios (1, 2, 3...)
"Label folio" receives the entry of the field "folio" of the widget "folio properties" (in this case, you can type by hand the number of the folio or anything you want to identify your folios).

I know... this is a litle bit confusing at the moment but I'm sure it will become easier in the next months (weeks?!?).

@ Opus
this is not a database! Only "something like" a database :-)
The big advantage of possibility 2 is that you have all article data embedded in your symbols.
Drawbacks: you need the LibreOffice macro and it has some restrictions unless you can modify the code of the macro by yourself to shape it fine for your needs.

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

Thank you for the really quick reply, Nuri
Ah, OK... i will see if i see that clearly later...i dont now but with a bit sleep maybe...

I could not find a way to invalidate an entered bug?

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

Nuri wrote:

@ Morganol

I tried it, but the column "Label folio" only contain "%id(%total)" for every item; it do not resolve the values. Bug?

For existing folios, you have to delete "%id(%total)" in folio properties one by one

When I do that i get no numbers at all neither in project list nor folio title block ! ?

Re: (Edited) Making our own cross referencing symbols

I tried it, but the column "Label folio" only contain "%id(%total)" for every item; it do not resolve the values.  Bug?

https://qelectrotech.org/forum/viewtopi … 5334#p5334

And :






https://download.tuxfamily.org/qet/forum_img/select_folio_id.png