1 (edited by qetechy 2020-05-08 13:21:36)

Topic: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Dear QET-Users,

with pleasure and success I am a new user of QElectroTech
and already a big fan. An her is my second posting/comment:

My topic with this post are the correct symbols in line with IEC 60617.
Up to now I could NOT find ANY free CAD tool, which includes the correct symbols.
The main reason for this is the high cost of PDF and online database access
of such IEC standards. There is only one free PDF from Alsthom about the standard:

  • pcad-libs.embedders.org/rules/ref_617.pdf

But most CAD tools do NOT include the correct symbols. Also KiCad and ProfiCad
with its libraries of IEC 60617 have the wrong dimensions of most parts.
This, because the so called module size and grid of all symbols is defined clearly
in the standard, but wrong in most libraries.

With QET the situation is up to now only a little bit better, but some deviation
does still exist. Especially the line thickness of symbols is currently to my humble
opinion not correct. The line width of 1,00 does not look good and clear
and is not in line with IEC 60617.
It is not easy to follow the IEC 60617 discussions, decisions and standards
if you are not a participating member in standardization bodies,
but I found two example protocols with comments about line width and grid:

  • tc3.iec.ch/meetings/tc3/2011/3_Helsinki_03.pdf

  • tc3.iec.ch/meetings/tc3/2009/TelAviv/3TA13.pdf

With this and the Alsthom pdf, it is possible to create quite good
standardized IEC 60617 symbols with QET. One modifcation for me
are improved or removed connectors of elements and the element
length of 2 or 4 without the length 3. A major modification is also the
increase of line width for all symbols and connections:

  • Conductor - Appearance Size: "2,00" instead of "1,00"

  • Element Editor - Appearance - Weight: "Strong" instead of "Normal"


I know about the other (partly old) forum discussions at:

  • qelectrotech.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1108

  • qelectrotech.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=277

Does it make sense to place/move my contribution to there?
The URL-limitation of "1" for hyperlinks in this forum is a pitty.
So you have to copy/paste/complete my mentioned URLs manually.

Please find attached one small example screenshot:

  • [5,21 kByte) qet-60617-line-width.png

If required, I can add more examples of my IEC 60617 symbols
or contribute to an official library.


Best Regards
Rudy

Post's attachments

qet-60617-line-width.png, 5.21 kb, 275 x 202
qet-60617-line-width.png 5.21 kb, 265 downloads since 2020-05-08 

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Attached is a screenshot from my current IEC 60617 collection.
The naming with official IEC numbers is quite helpful
in order to find, sort and identify the right elements.

Regards from Rudy

Post's attachments

qet-60617-collection.png, 14.39 kb, 577 x 303
qet-60617-collection.png 14.39 kb, 492 downloads since 2020-05-08 

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Hi Rudy,
have you see EN 60617 directory on 0.8-dev?

Le dossier EN 60617 contient 912 éléments, réparties dans 127 dossiers.

Chemin de la collection :  common://10_electric/91_en_60617
Chemin dans le système de fichiers :  /home/laurent/Qet-svn/git/qet/elements/10_electric/91_en_60617

"Le jour où tu découvres le Libre, tu sais que tu ne pourras jamais plus revenir en arrière..."

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

https://qelectrotech.org/forum/viewtopi … 7026#p7026

"Le jour où tu découvres le Libre, tu sais que tu ne pourras jamais plus revenir en arrière..."

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Thank you Scorpio,

yes, I have seen and checked the symbols in the QET installation directory:
...\elements\10_electric\91_en_60617\...

However the too small line width of the symbols is only a cosmetic issue.
A real issue is, that some very basic shapes (R, L, C) and a lot of more are not correct.
Sorry for that criticism. Here some examples:

  • The resistor R is too long (3/5 instead of 4 units)

  • The capacitor C is to wide (4 instead of 2 units)

  • The inductance L is not on the grid

The odd length (5) of the resistor R has the result, that you
cannot place a capacitor as usual parallel to a resistor.
An oscillator circuit with RLC should be realized good and easy.
-> see attached screenshot.

I like QET, because I will create my own symbols.
But I think, that the default IEC 60617 library can be improved.

It is also a good idea to make a compromise between
conductors, terminals, length, width and grid of symbols.
E.g. the inductance with length 4 does not need connection
conductors, but the capacitor and resistor with odd length
do need appropriate connection conductors.

Regards from Rudy

Post's attachments

qet-60617_rlc-circuit.png, 11.26 kb, 377 x 334
qet-60617_rlc-circuit.png 11.26 kb, 245 downloads since 2020-05-08 

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

In my mentioned document URL of IEC standardization body
meeting notes, there are references to correct line width:

The clause 6.6 of ISO 81714-1 describes how to divide the grid as follows:
The relation between the line width and the module size M used for the design of graphical symbols shall be 1:10. Characters and lines of graphical symbols should have the same line width. Standardized line widths given in ISO 128-20 should be used.

In IEC 61082-1, the line width is defined as follows:
For drawings the possible line widths are derived from 0.1 x M x (SQRT(2))^n with n = 0,1,2,3, ...

The parameter M is the module or grid size.
The quotes are dated 2011-09-26 and I do not know,
what has changed since then and what is current status.

It is wise to be as much as possible in line with standardization.
But it is very bad, that for relevant standards you have to pay for.
No surprise, that a lot of companies, countries and people do not (or cannot) respect them.

Best Regards from Rudy

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Re Rudy,

you are welcome to improve this library, fork our Github mirror and like other guys submit me a Pull Request :
https://github.com/qelectrotech/qelectr … rce-mirror

Regards,
Laurent

"Le jour où tu découvres le Libre, tu sais que tu ne pourras jamais plus revenir en arrière..."

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Hello Laurent,

I'd like to contribute. Otherwise I wouldn't post the above.

  • Who is discussing and deciding about possible modifications of element collections?

  • Does it make sense to create two IEC 60617 libraries with different line widths?

  • May be the majority of users does not care about the current 1,00 line width?

  • Will it not confuse the QET users, when standard elements are changed? (continuously improved)

Regards from Rudy

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Hi Rudy
They look really great! nomicons/smile

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Hi Rudy,

What is the current status of this topic and implementation of the 60617-inspired database in QET vs your own version - was any of your work integrated into QET?

I read the IEC documents you linked to and some others, including this one:
https://webstore.iec.ch/preview/info_ie … .0%7Db.pdf
...and it is interesting to read the IEC's copyright notice for the IEC 60617 database (copied below, my bold) on page 2 of that pdf.

Copyright
The structure and content of the IEC databases are copyright of IEC. IEC encourages the
use, referencing or citation of the contents of the databases for the purpose of identifying or
clarifying the meaning of electrotechnical concepts, terms and symbols and their use in
manuals, diagrams and equipment. IEC should be referenced as the source. Duplication of
the databases or the extraction of substantial portions of them for commercial exploitation
or for free sharing is prohibited without the explicit, written approval of the IEC.


So I suppose some differentiation between the IEC 60617 database and anything 'inspired by it' is worth maintaining, if only to ensure this free project respects the spirit of copyright law. C'est la Vie – someone has to pay for IEC delegates to meet up occasionally to discuss line end types. nomicons/wink

Otherwise, I very much like your efforts toward continuous improvement. nomicons/smile


Hamish

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

https://git.tuxfamily.org/qet/qet.git/l … 1_en_60617
Le dossier EN 60617 contient 912 éléments, réparties dans 129 dossiers.

Chemin de la collection :  common://10_electric/91_en_60617

"Le jour où tu découvres le Libre, tu sais que tu ne pourras jamais plus revenir en arrière..."

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Merci beaucoup Laurent!

There's seems to be a lot of excellent, productive activity happening from time to time or quietly in the background.

Is there a current roadmap for QET publicly available?

Many thanks for all your dedication in managing the project!


Hamish

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Hello Hamish,

https://qelectrotech.org/wiki_new/roadmap
But Joshua work when he have free time on new terminal block generator:
https://qelectrotech.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1486
instead off qet_tb_terminal python plugin:
https://qelectrotech.org/forum/viewtopi … 070#p17070

"Le jour où tu découvres le Libre, tu sais que tu ne pourras jamais plus revenir en arrière..."

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Merci Laurent!

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

BTW, sometimes element is so complex for drawning, you could use DXF to elmt converter:

"Le jour où tu découvres le Libre, tu sais que tu ne pourras jamais plus revenir en arrière..."

16 (edited by hairy_kiwi 2023-06-19 13:54:29)

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Hello Laurent,

I did see the DXF converter but just haven't yet had time to check it out.

At significant risk of appearing to jump around and hijack threads (my apologies)...

Looking at QET from the perspective of a relative outsider, I can appreciate all the good effort going into building converters and the terminal block tool – all great progress, however – and as Joshua alludes to himself in this post:
https://qelectrotech.org/forum/viewtopi … 925#p12925

Joshua wrote:

One other things (this is my opinion and not necessary the opinion of the whole QET team) don't draw exactly the same element for each reference of a device series.
...
The element collection is very big and make a lot of time to be loaded (in windows), so no need to bloat it with doubloon.

That suggests there is considerable value in integrating the work of plc-user etc in core code, in order to obviate the need for (mirrored) duplicates of components. But before that it seems the data associated with terminals - and its programatic accessibility to the rest of the drawing - as you seem to suggest here:
https://qelectrotech.org/forum/viewtopi … 925#p12925
has yet to be fully agreed upon?

I feel I've already taken more of your time than I perhaps deserve as a newcomer, but I do so only with a desire to see QET as fine a software as I know it will be; I know it all takes time, but I also see a lot of apparently dead conversations in this forum around some very fundamental aspects of QET.


Sincerely,
Hamish

17 (edited by Pai54svt263 2023-10-21 18:41:39)

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Hi, I'm new here. 70-year-old veteran, 54 years in the electrical and automation industry behind him. I made new credentials when the old ones couldn't get in for some reason.

I have made a pdf document about QET line widths etc. QET line groups are 0.25 and 0.50. So 0.25mm thick line and 0.125mm thin line. 0.50mm thick line 0.25mm thin line. This applies to sheet Grid 2,5 .

Post's attachments

QET, line.JPG, 225.65 kb, 1014 x 717
QET, line.JPG 225.65 kb, 59 downloads since 2023-06-19 

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

In CAD drawing, we have tried to get rid of the line thicknesses of the Tussi and stencil era (before 1980), when the main circuits were drawn with a thicker line. In general, circuit diagrams aim to use only two line thicknesses on the same page.

Pdf attachment, describes the past tense.

Post's attachments

Attachment icon Piirikaavio, 3-v moottorilähtö,K-0-A, moottorisk_05_b.pdf 29.16 kb, 133 downloads since 2023-06-20 

19 (edited by Pai54svt263 2023-10-21 18:54:12)

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Hey,

I have sometimes made auxiliary tools that I share with you. My drawing with the QET program has remained an exercise and a test to tinker with. I used to use programs that save in DWG format to update and change images.

I haven't found any discussion about Eleme's editor's grip M sizing. I documented it, grip M is 10xviiva 0.25 thick, grid 2,5.


Best regards, Pai

Post's attachments

Grid module.JPG, 174.09 kb, 1043 x 514
Grid module.JPG 174.09 kb, 65 downloads since 2023-06-22 

20 (edited by Pai54svt263 2023-10-21 19:19:05)

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Translate Google

Hey,

I have noticed that the drawing sheet and the print sheet must be the same size so that the thickness of the line and the size of the element correspond to the drawing.

I had a hard time learning the pixel division of the sheet size. Tool for determining the size of print sheets, handle for sizes 2.5 and 2.
The ISO216 definition of the number of pixels on the sheets does not give the correct sheet size on my 17-year-old plc machine, the screen is 1980x1080 @60Hz, the screen manual also mentions pix=0.265mm. The sheet size A4 is approx. 3% / 4% smaller than the sheet actually is.

After the pixel count of the image is corrected, the scale and paper size match, at least on my Win10 machine with + - 0,5-1% accuracy.

Regards, Pai54

Post's attachments

Attachment icon Page comparison, A4, A3 Letter, Legal, Tabloid, Ledger..7z 474.49 kb, 82 downloads since 2023-10-21 

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Please keep in mind, that QET isn't a tool for drawing exact scales on a specific paper size:
Depending on the number of cols and rows per page and the number of px per row/col the exact scale of the drawing is not predictable. The line width must also be considered accordingly: Here it also depends on how the PDF viewer or printer-driver interprets the respective line width. There are already discussions about this in this forum.

For the discussion about scales in QET there are already threads in the forum. One of the latest:
https://qelectrotech.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1924

Fragen zu QET gehören in dieses Forum und werden nicht per PM beantwortet! – Questions regarding QET belong in this forum and will NOT be answered via PM! – Les questions concernant QET doivent être posées sur ce forum et ne seront pas traitées par MP !

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Hey,

QET line weight 0.35 drawing.
With the drawing handle set to 2.5 pages, the line strengths of the QET element drawing program are 0.125, 0.25, 0.50, 1.25.
By setting the drawing handle 2 to the side, the line strengths change by a factor of 0.8.
Foil properties, appearance size: 1.4, corresponds to size 0.35.

A line weight of 0.35 can be drawn by drawing three 0.125 "thin" lines according to the attached model.

Regards, Pai54

Post's attachments

Attachment icon H7413-02_koe.elmt 22.55 kb, 80 downloads since 2023-10-26 

23

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Hi mate, I will always make elements I made available for my professional and personal projects, I have also a strong interest to draw elements in my free time, especially PLC's and other Misc elements. However, it is always a challenge to properly draw each element and make sure they are properly drawn and updated to the latest standards.
With that said, is there any document available online describing the way to properly draw PLC's? Right dimensions, separation between each I/O etc...

Re: Symbols IEC 60617 line width

Hey,

I don't know if it can be found, you can try to search from the link. Nowadays, many people draw them with a front view. I will share my "universal" elements with you.


https://products.iec.ch/home

Post's attachments

Attachment icon LOG.kuva.7z 341.82 kb, 94 downloads since 2023-11-12