1 Topic by Nuri (edited by Nuri 2014-04-12 12:10:50)

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Topic: Au sujet de la norme IEC 81346 / about norm IEC 81346

FRANCAIS :

QElectroTech est vraiment un bon logiciel prétendant être un éditeur électrotechnique INTERNATIONAL / OPEN SOURCE / MULTI-SYSTEME.
Le seul dans sa catégorie !

Je suis concepteur "matériel électrique/automatisation" pour des installations et machines industrielles (en Allemagne) et je ne peux pas utiliser QElectroTech pour mon travail à cause de la norme IEC 81346.
Voir le fichier attaché "Brief-introduction-to-81346.pdf" à ce post pour une petite présentation dela norme.
Ou voir : www.81346.com

A l'origine, l'IEC 81346 est basée sur une ancienne norme allemande/européenne : DIN EN 61346 (qui n'existe plus).
La norme internationale (IEC) est encore très jeune puisqu'elle a été éditée en 2009.

Toutefois, je pense que cette norme deviendra de plus en plus importante dans le futur à cause de son fondement INTERNATIONAL.

Le manque de gestion de l'IEC 81346 est un gros problème pour que QElectroTech soit plus largement utilisé en entreprise pour des travaux professionels.

Le fichier attaché "IEC81346-example-for-QET.png" permet d'imaginer comment cela pourrait être implémenté dans un développement future.



ENGLISH :

QElectroTech is really a nice piece of software and intends to be an INTERNATIONAL / OPEN SOURCE / ALL-OS electrotechnical editor.
The only one in this category !

I'm a hardware/automation engineer for industrial plants and machines (in Germany) and I can not use QElectroTech for my job because of the norm IEC 81346.
See the attached file "Brief-introduction-to-81346.pdf" of this post for a small presentation of the norm.
Or look at : www.81346.com

The IEC 81346 is primarily based on an old german/european norm : DIN EN 61346 (who doesn't exist anymore).
The international norm (IEC) is very young, since it was released in 2009.

However, I think this norm will be more an more important in the future because of its INTERNATIONAL background.

The lack of managing IEC 81346 is a big problem for QElectroTech to be used in firms for professional work.

You can look at the attached file "IEC81346-example-for-QET.png" to imagine how it could look like in QET for further development.

Post's attachments

Attachment icon Brief-introduction-to-81346.pdf 353.67 kb, 36989 downloads since 2014-04-10 

Attachment icon IEC81346-example-for-QET.png 330.44 kb, 313 downloads since 2014-04-12 

Re: Au sujet de la norme IEC 81346 / about norm IEC 81346

can you please give us a copy of this 81346 as pdf?
and yes i do it now exactly same way as you do.
it means by hand.

paul deelen
shooter@home.nl

3 Reply by Nuri (edited by Nuri 2014-04-14 12:56:26)

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Re: Au sujet de la norme IEC 81346 / about norm IEC 81346

I don't have the norm. You can buy it online for about 200 EUR ;-)
Look at (summary in english and in french) :
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct= … mp;cad=rja

In Germany, only parts of the norm are used, especially the sign "=" to indicate the function group and the sign "+" to indicate where the components are built in.

Unfortunately, the norm is not really used in France (not yet...).
So... it's really a big deal to convince the (french) devs of QElectroTech to integrate the IEC 81346 in the software for international purpose.

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Re: Au sujet de la norme IEC 81346 / about norm IEC 81346

Nuri

Yes this norm isn't really used in France, but i can see in German, Austrian machines at my work.
Thanks for capture it explain well these functions.

https://download.qelectrotech.org/qet/forum_img/IEC81346-example-for-QET.png

"Le jour où tu découvres le Libre, tu sais que tu ne pourras jamais plus revenir en arrière..."
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Re: Au sujet de la norme IEC 81346 / about norm IEC 81346

I understand list of titleblock is cut in many sublevels.
At time isn't possibility to adding a sublevel in project.
You want sublevels by tags "=" and "+", i think is just a visual option.


Yes,  element property widget  can add informations: "installation and implantation " and wrote these in diagram like comments.
Is planned in future.

Nice widget ;-)

"Le jour où tu découvres le Libre, tu sais que tu ne pourras jamais plus revenir en arrière..."

6 Reply by Nuri (edited by Nuri 2014-04-14 19:58:37)

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Re: Au sujet de la norme IEC 81346 / about norm IEC 81346

Hi Scorpio,

yes, you're right : the project tree is cut in many sublevels and each element has its own =/+ information (like -Q1 in my screenshot example).
But if you don't need =/+, you have the project tree as it now is in qet.
I have some customers who doesn't like the leveling with =/+, so the project tree (in Eplan) look like as it now is in qet.

But.... it's not all ! There is a small problem with =/+ :
we also need them in the cross references.

For example : you have a project with 2 pages.
first page : =I1+L1 / 1
second page : =I2+L2 / 1

The page number is for both pages "1".
It means : the cross references have to show "=I1+L1/1" and not only "1".

But I spoke with you on the IRC channel about these =/+ and I know you are aware about the stuff.
I would like to know how many QET users are interested with the =/+ function and, more generally, with IEC 81346.

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Re: Au sujet de la norme IEC 81346 / about norm IEC 81346

I have some customers who doesn't like the leveling with =/+, so the project tree (in Eplan) look like as it now is in qet.

good song ... nomicons/smile

But.... it's not all ! There is a small problem with =/+ :
we also need them in the cross references.
For example : you have a project with 2 pages.
first page : =I1+L1 / 1
second page : =I2+L2 / 1
The page number is for both pages "1".
It means : the cross references have to show "=I1+L1/1" and not only "1".

Ok, i think isn't a big problem.

"Le jour où tu découvres le Libre, tu sais que tu ne pourras jamais plus revenir en arrière..."

Re: Au sujet de la norme IEC 81346 / about norm IEC 81346

use the diagram properties title and not the number as this can change when adding diagrams in between  (eventually added with the subdirs (not yet in) the project  like i did with my elements)
when referencing it works like a charm.

btw busy with qet_nl

paul deelen
shooter@home.nl
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Re: Au sujet de la norme IEC 81346 / about norm IEC 81346

But.... it's not all ! There is a small problem with =/+ :
we also need them in the cross references.
For example : you have a project with 2 pages.
first page : =I1+L1 / 1
second page : =I2+L2 / 1
The page number is for both pages "1".
It means : the cross references have to show "=I1+L1/1" and not only "1".

No luck, latest  German plan ( create in 2014 by German maker) i open this night at my work, with same =plan and + inst1 in all diagrams, the cross references for contacts have show folio number ... :p

I think, We have left the choice to user.

"Le jour où tu découvres le Libre, tu sais que tu ne pourras jamais plus revenir en arrière..."

Re: Au sujet de la norme IEC 81346 / about norm IEC 81346

well replace the pagenumber with the pagetitle in the references plus the column number. (not the file name)
it should be done in software.
something like
=function (subdir or subdiv see eplan)
+location (subdir or subdiv see eplan)
/pagenumber.column

(btw i am getting familiair with NPP editor, in eq_nl busy on line 1000 of 7443)

paul deelen
shooter@home.nl
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Re: Au sujet de la norme IEC 81346 / about norm IEC 81346

(btw i am getting familiair with NPP editor, in eq_nl busy on line 1000 of 7443)

Thanks.

"Le jour où tu découvres le Libre, tu sais que tu ne pourras jamais plus revenir en arrière..."

12 Reply by Nuri (edited by Nuri 2014-04-18 13:15:34)

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Re: Au sujet de la norme IEC 81346 / about norm IEC 81346

scorpio810 wrote:

No luck, latest  German plan ( create in 2014 by German maker) i open this night at my work, with same =plan and + inst1 in all diagrams, the cross references for contacts have show folio number ... :p

I think, We have left the choice to user.

Yes, no luck to see how it works... and the user should ALWAYS have the choice to use =/+ or not.

But your german plan was right : if you only have one "=" and one "+" in the whole project, then the cross references only show the folio number (and path or column/line number).

I try to describe how the "=/+" system should works with cross references (with folio reports) :

1. case : without =/+ (what QET already do)
source : ---> L1 (on folio 1, path 7)
goal : L1 >--- (on folio 2, path 2)
The cross refs look like that :
---> L1 / 2.2        1.7 / L1 >---

2. case : with 2 different installations
source : ---> L1 (on folio =INST1 / 1, path 7)
goal : L1 >--- (on folio =INST2 / 1, path 2)
The cross refs look like that :
---> L1 / =INST2/1.2        =INST1/1.7 / L1 >---

3. case : with the same installation
source : ---> L1 (on folio =INST1 / 1, path 7)
goal : L1 >--- (on folio =INST1 / 2, path 2)
The cross refs look like that :
---> L1 / 2.2        1.7 / L1 >---

4. case : with 2 different locations and the same installation
source : ---> L1 (on folio =INST1+LOC1 / 1, path 7)
goal : L1 >--- (on folio =INST1+LOC2 / 2, path 2)
The cross refs look like that :
---> L1 / +LOC2/2.2        +LOC1/1.7 / L1 >---

5. case : with 2 different locations and 2 different installations
source : ---> L1 (on folio =INST1+LOC1 / 5, path 7)
goal : L1 >--- (on folio =INST2+LOC2 / 5, path 2)
The cross refs look like that :
---> L1 / =INST2+LOC2/5.2        =INST1+LOC1/5.7 / L1 >---

and so on...


It means : cross refs texts show only =/+ if the =/+ of the source (or master) ARE DIFFERENT from the =/+ of the goal (or slave).

For contact mirors, PLC channels or every cross ref, it works exactly the same way as for folio reports (---> >---).